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November 28, 2003
I'll take one chicken to go, please
Anil Dash writes about a takeout restaurant he frequents, which is less than welcoming to female customers, in Halalapalooza:
Then:
Posted by Gina at 12:09 AM | Permalink
Comments
If unigendered environments are a priori evil, we should begin by outlawing female safe spaces and women's shelters.
Oh and female locker rooms.
Posted by: Julius at Nov 28, 2003 4:08:45 AM
Well, it's a good thing that unigendered environments aren't an a priori evil then, isn't it? Can't you find something constructive to do, Julius? Are you actually that threatened by the discussion of women in technology that you have nothing better to do than come to this site and manufacture arguments with each post?
Posted by: Anil at Nov 28, 2003 7:49:51 AM
At least people aren't pretending like Gina doesn't exist, Anil. Even disparagement is better than the wall of silence.
Posted by: Shelley at Nov 28, 2003 9:26:18 AM
"Are you actually that threatened by the discussion of women in technology that you have nothing better to do than come to this site and manufacture arguments with each post?"
Can't handle a little point-counterpoint, Anil?
How sad. That's not how things work in the real world. In the real world, when people see bullshit, they call bullshit. I'm trying to bring a little of that here, but I'm not surprised to see that reality is not welcomed with open arms by this crowd.
Posted by: Julius at Nov 28, 2003 11:37:41 AM
I'd just like to add that if women have a right to safe spaces, then so do swarthy Middle-Eastern male taxi drivers. You can't have it both ways. If this restaurant is misogynistic, then all female safe spaces are misandristic. Isn't this obvious?
Posted by: Julius at Nov 28, 2003 11:40:05 AM
Hmm, let’s see: Abused women who fear for their lives (and sometimes for that of their children) in need of a shelter and swarthy Middle-Eastern taxi drivers who fear that the presence of women will bring down the shelter of their manliness somehow.
Oh yea ... I can see the equivalence there. You are right ... we can’t have it both ways, and we need to speak up in defense of those men who were frightened into a glacial silence by the mere presence of a woman, who, absurdly, assumed that, this being an eating establishment in America, she had a right to be there.... Or was there a sign out there saying something to the effect that while we serve chickens here, living females of any sort, feathered or not, are not welcome?
Posted by: maria at Nov 28, 2003 1:09:22 PM
Your shallow rhetoric aside, men have just as much a right to safe spaces as women do. To claim otherwise is sexist. Are you sexist, maria?
Posted by: Julius at Nov 28, 2003 3:37:06 PM
They're not allowed to say that because saying so is illegal (though legal for women).
However, men have just as much a right to safe spaces as women do. To claim otherwise is sexist.
Posted by: Julius at Nov 28, 2003 3:37:09 PM
Julius, I'd like to personally thank you for illustrating so clearly why misbehaving exists at all.
You're doing a brilliant job of showing everyone why these discussions are so important. So thanks.
Posted by: Gina at Nov 28, 2003 3:38:36 PM
I couldn't decide which way to word my response to make it most effective so I posted it both ways. Pick whichever response makes you feel more stupid.
Posted by: Julius at Nov 28, 2003 3:40:31 PM
Some men have overly influenced the comments in this posting and the other related posting and over at my weblog -- the discussion in all these places have become about these men rather than the issues. And I'm not pointing fingers without pointing them at myself, first, for doing to same thing -- responding to the male's own centered view of himself in the middle of all this talk, rather than the issue.
We're never going to make a difference in this environment if we let the 'look at me' men control the dialog. Never.
Posted by: Shelley at Nov 28, 2003 5:10:35 PM
When you attack the men's right to maintain their safe spaces, it is our most natural right to respond to your sexist hypocrisy.
Posted by: Julius at Nov 28, 2003 6:36:56 PM
At least people aren't pretending like Gina doesn't exist, Anil. Even disparagement is better than the wall of silence.
I'm kind of not sure how that's prompted by my comments to Julius. And I think there are people who legitimately disagree that disparagement is better than silence, though I do understand that you (and certainly many others) feel that way. I probably still favor the "if you don't have anything nice to say..." rationale, but I suppose that's a different debate.
More to the point, I do lament that the discussion is now about Julius, rather than the larger point. I'm confused in general by people who would be so offended by this site and its premise, yet still give it so much of their time. If working to raise the profile of women's contributions to and participation in the technology realm is an inherently flawed concept, then it'll certainly wither of its own accord, which makes their fixation even more inscrutable. Have you all developed a policy for dealing with this going forward, or is it a case-by-case situation?
Posted by: Anil at Nov 28, 2003 9:06:28 PM
I'll have to watch where I eat, Anil. I haven't noticed the phenomena except in the local Philly's Best (where they have the name Frank Rizzo emblazoned on the wall as some kind of saint -- they don't seem to have any women working there come to think of it. Is this a corporate practice?)
Posted by: Joel at Dec 1, 2003 4:08:57 PM
I don't understand why Julius feels so threatened by Anil's suggestion that customers at the local fried-chicken outlet shouldn't be treated rudely because they're women. I hope we could all agree that if "swarthy Middle-Eastern male taxi drivers" got singled out for bad treatment, that too would be wrong.
The world is full of safe places where people hang out with others like them, swapping war stories and gathering courage for the day ahead. When in-groups choose to hang out in public spaces--or when in-groups try to monopolize spaces of economic importance--those of us cold-shouldered have a right to complain.
Posted by: Betsy Devine at Dec 2, 2003 5:09:43 PM
It's a bit mysterious, Betsy, but we live in an age where manners are eschewed -- except when it comes to how we refer to the President of the United States. Then it is all protocol.
Posted by: Joel at Dec 2, 2003 6:04:05 PM
Just a note -- A group of people that need a safe space from an external threat should be allowed it. However, arguing that they have every right for that space to be a public restaurant is a bit ludicrous, Julius.
Posted by: burning at Dec 4, 2003 11:25:25 AM
Been doing a little bit more reading of the blog, and I wanted to apologize for extending this conversation unnecessarily. I thought Julius was just someone arguing about issues about which he was a little unclear. I didn't realize Julius was your resident troll. It's very kind of you all to let him keep posting.
Posted by: burning at Dec 4, 2003 1:10:22 PM
