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November 05, 2003
Processing a kind invitation
I'm always ecstatic when i'm included in the "social" or "business" events organized by the social software community. This makes me feel validated and appreciated. Yet, i'm brutally aware of how much younger i am than most of those involved, and how few women and minorities are included. I'm also aware of the (couple) unwanted sexual advantages that i've dodged in this community.
Most of these gatherings are on fairly neutral turf, or in a context that defines the interactions to be about colleagues gathering, even when alcohol is present.
But, a few days ago, i received an invite that struck a nerve. I was invited to an event of social software folks placed in a setting with hot tubs and booze. At first, i was ecstatic to be included, and then the reality sunk in that attending this might be a dreadful mistake.
For years, i wanted to prove my equality in the domain of boys. I shaved my head. I wore baggy masculine clothes, no makeup. I wanted to prove that i was valuable, not as a girl, but as a researcher. At some point, i realized that dressing like a boy didn't make me a boy and i was going to always be seen as a girl in a male-dominated space. This realization made me give up on my dress code and lately, i've been wearing a lot of pink, have girly hair and wear skirts, in my eccentric kind of way.
Normally, i would be more determined to attend in an all-male space, determined to prove that i'm capable of keeping up with the boys. But something in me says that this is irresponsible. I have no desire to sleep with any of my colleagues and the idea of being half naked and drunk in their presence seems outright stupid, even if there are only good intentions.
The inviter listed people he intended to include (i.e. "first tier"). All were men. Because no women were on that first tier, i had no idea if other women were invited. Normally, i'm perfectly OK being the only female in a room. And, as all of my friends know, i love hot tubbing. But something about this strikes a chord.
This realization makes me sad. I doubt that the inviter realizes that this might make me uncomfortable. I don't actually think badly of him, or of anyone else who makes such a great gesture to gather folks socially. And i'd hate to think that it means that i won't be invited in the future. And maybe i'm overreacting by being uncomfortable, but this incident just reminded me that i'm a *girl* in a boy's domain in a way that i haven't felt so intensely in so long. ::sigh::
At first, i was afraid to blog about my emotional reaction to this kind gesture. I didn't want to publicly make a stink; i didn't want to be seen as a bad player. But, as i thought about it, i thought it might be good to post. Maybe there are other women who struggle with this? Maybe my confusion might be helpful for the men in this male-dominated space to understand some of the mental struggles that we deal with. And maybe, years later, when i read the archive of this entry, i'll look back and laugh... i'll laugh at how male-dominated the tech industry once was.
s/boy/man
s/girl/woman
if offended by my language
Posted by zephoria at 12:02 AM in Events | Permalink
Comments
I think you should go. This is of course based completely on me not knowing you and not knowing the social structure of this group - but - first of all, not everybody jumps into the tub in parties like these, so if you are not comfortable with going in the tub - don't go into the tub. Also if you think about it this way: They are middle-aged males - you are a young woman. If you have the strength of not being intimidated by them in a less-than-dressy situation, you win. Also, the guy who invited you probably went through the thought process "lets have a party, lets all get drunk and splash around in the pool.... hmmm, who would be fun to have there..." and probably has no clue that you are the only girl on the list. More strength to you then, when you show up.
I would go. I would carefully select the swimsuit (sexy but not too revealing) and I would not get too drunk, but I would go.
Posted by: helga at Nov 5, 2003 3:56:34 AM
Here's a thought. IF you were the only female invited (and as you say you don't know for sure, but IF) what kind of group of all males would want to have a hot tub party not knowing for certain that the female invitee would show up? Or what group of males would have a hot tub party and only invite one female?
One answer MIGHT be that they are all gay. And if that is the case then your sexual anxieties should all disappear and you would most likely have a great time there - even if you choose not to drink or bathe.
There are othe possible answers as well. And you should think about the situation in the light of each possibility to truly determine whether or not you should attend.
Would attending be beneficial to you or your career? If that answer is no, then the rest of it is moot anyway.
Posted by: -g. at Nov 5, 2003 6:58:53 AM
Hi D = Listen, no man or woman invitee on that list can assume this is really a "business" event, HOWEVER, you know this is the hip and modern version of an older generation's afternoon of golf for the "good old boys" where lots of important business actually happens, so you should go ... interesting how times have changed (and NOT changed).
The name Dana is sometimes in the Chris, Pat, Drew category of ambiguously asexual -- M or F? Perhaps the party-thrower considered you a man. I worked with a prominent VC on a project for over 3 months -- on email only -- and then at the end of the project, called to thank him for his involvement, leaving him a voice mail to this end. He called back to leave me voice mail as well, with the following message 'YOU'RE A GIRL!!!" My reply was "Last I checked, yes." We're still business colleagues, and yes, I'm still a "girl" -- and these things still happen.
Posted by: Halley at Nov 5, 2003 7:07:29 AM
It's funny how I still react to "hot tub party" - but it's not the 70's/80's anymore and I have to fight that initial interpretation. I agree with Halley. But here's a little story that might help. Last year when I was at DevConnections in Orlando, the conference was hosted at an incredible resort. There were gorgeous pools and hot tubs outdoors -all like caves etc. I was invited to come hang out with some of the speakers by 2 male speakers and was definitely worried what this meant because I didn't know them. Didn't know "what people would think" etc. (God they would laugh so hard if they read this) But I thought - allright, I'm 41, overweight, married, etc. not the same territory as when I was 30 and single, etc. So I went and it just turned out to be fun and social and, as Halley says, great networking. And it was interesting because a lot of those other worries (eg what I look like in a bathing suit) etc just didn't matter because it's NOT what this was about at all. And some other women ended up being there too. So it was just okay and my initial reaction was a little silly - but came from a lot of history so it wasn't completely unfounded. This is not saying - oh just go and don't think twice about it. I don't know if this is helping any, but maybe just give you some more fodder. Perhaps if you WANT to participate, bring a couple of other women with you if that makes you feel more comfortable. Oh I sure hope this comment doesn't get syndicated!!:-)
Posted by: julie lerman at Nov 5, 2003 11:47:45 AM
Honestly, i can't go. I've been trying very hard to maintain a non-sexual relationship with some of the people on the list and this would leave me vulnerable in a way that i'm not prepared for.
G - They aren't all gay, i know many of them, and i doubt it was constructed in a way to be sexual, so i doubt that they factored in female presence as sexual presence.
Julie - i really appreciate your anecdote! Perhaps part of the problem is that i've been fending off sexual advances already and not really wanting to be in a situation that makes them more explicit. Like i said, i'm not entirely sure where i stand on this, other than to say that it sent me for a tizzy. And i *wish* that i knew other women in this domain in SF to invite... ::sigh::
Posted by: danah boyd at Nov 5, 2003 4:29:27 PM
I think I would put in an appearance, who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised and enjoy yourself in what turns out to be mixed company. Then, in a few weeks, invite this fella to a very girly type party of your own.
Posted by: Vicki Smith AKA CalGal at Nov 5, 2003 4:50:45 PM
As long as you insist on treating all men as sexual predators, you're going to remain miserable and continue to perpetrate the sexism you supposedly decry.
Do you want to see the face of sexism? Try looking in the mirror.
Posted by: Julie at Nov 5, 2003 5:56:18 PM
I think this might have been the first post on this site that has also acknowledged (albeit in passing) the marked lack of visibility of not only women, but women of color (ethnic minorities) in the tech field. Not to deflect the discourse from the very real personal anxiety the poster is experiencing (I empathize with not wanting to go - I would probably feel the same way) but in frequenting this site, I have often wondered about the thoughts the posters here may have about how class and race intersect with their feelings of gender oppression within their field.
Posted by: katherine at Nov 5, 2003 6:16:46 PM
::sigh:: Please tell me how i'm treating all men as sexual predators by expressing my internal anxieties here? I'm not worried about *all* of the men, and i'm not even worried about the ones that i don't know. I'm worried about the handful who have already put me in uncomfortable positions. What i'm expressing is the struggle that _i'm_ personally going through (and that some people might relate to). I'm offering it as an anecdote expressing when i, as a woman, notice that i'm a woman.
How this makes me sexist is so far beyond me; it simply sounds like an attack to stifle the conversation. Julie, what on earth do you gain by just declaring me the be the face of sexism? And how does that move the conversation forward? How does that make more minority populations comfortable in their experiences of being "different"?
Posted by: danah boyd at Nov 5, 2003 8:43:45 PM
first - just clarifying that there are two Julie's commenting here! And I hope you've got them sorted out! :-)
Danah - if you are that uncomfortable, don't go. Intiuition is a good thing most of the time. Find another opportunity to socialize with these people. Now you have touched on another pet topic of mine - meeting other women in i.t. so you don't feel like an alien! I bet I can hook you up in S.F. Email me off line.
Posted by: julie lerman at Nov 5, 2003 9:43:01 PM
Danah, it sounds like you don't have enough information to make a good decision.
Could you contact the inviter and simply ask, "Hey, are other women coming? I couldn't tell from the list."
If he asks why, say "I'd feel uncomfortable if I were the the only woman there." Your feeling is valid.
If it turns out you are the only woman invited, he's been thoughtless to put you in that position. If he doesn't apologize and/or quickly say he'll invite others, don't go --for sure. Word will get back about why you declined, and your professional life might get a little space.
If he says there are other women coming -- wives and girlfriends of the invited men, perhaps? -- you have more information with which to make a decision.
Social anxiety is universal. People ask for details about events I've invited them to -- what to wear, whether they'll know anybody, is it okay to show up near the end, can they bring something or somebody. But they're really asking for reassurance that they'll fit in and enjoy themselves, just as you are.
Posted by: sheila at Nov 6, 2003 1:53:49 AM
It's simple. You are being sexist by perpetrating a stereotype that frequently goes unvoiced explicitly (we rarely come right out and say "all men are sexual predators" -- it would sound silly and bigoted, and rightfully so) but frequently goes assumed, through our behaviors. You're assuming that it is up to you to control men's behavior, because they can't or won't control themselves. You're treating them as brutes, animals, somehow less civilized, to be feared and avoided and dealt with gingerly, since they cannot be tamed. How are these hurtful stereotypes helping your cause of integrating women into the IT workplace?
If you don't want sexual advances from certain people, tell them. It's simple. There's nothing to it. There is no issue here.
If you don't tell them, how are they supposed to know?
Perhaps you don't want to tell them? Perhaps you have something to gain from their continued assumption of possible interest on your part? In that case, you're on your own. You won't get any advice OR sympathy from me if you're playing that card.
Posted by: Julie at Nov 6, 2003 3:22:09 AM
I'm basing my comments on my understanding of human consciousness, specifically on Prof. Jenny Wade's work -- but a critical mass of men don't think in the same way as a critical mass of women. We live in different states of consciousness.
Asking women whether there's a subtext may not be the right answer -- try asking a male constituency what they think of the invitation. You've already gotten feedback from one man (Joe at jennett.radio); try asking other men if they think this was an entirely neutral request.
As Albert Einstein said, "A problem cannot be solved from the same state of consciousness that created it." If you see a problem, you may need to stretch to resolve it.
Heck, I'm going to ask this same question on my blog of my regular male readers, see what they think. Can't hurt, might help.
As for my opinion on attending: if you have to question and deliberate the intention, your subconscious is raising a flag and it's usually with good reason. Trust your instincts.
Posted by: Rayne at Nov 6, 2003 10:47:38 AM
You're treating them as brutes, animals, somehow less civilized, to be feared and avoided and dealt with gingerly, since they cannot be tamed.
All men and women are animals; individuals of the species are more or less "civilized" according to a host of factors, including each one's own personal definition of what it is to be civil within the situations in which they may find themselves.
It is not unreasonable, when contemplating whether or not to attend a quasi-social event, to take into account the past behaviours of other possible attendees. Nor is it unreasonable to question whether or not the nature of the event itself is likely to encourage those other attendees to behave in ways one finds personally objectionable, especially when one has to continue working with those people, no matter how well or how badly things turn out.
If you don't want sexual advances from certain people, tell them. It's simple. There's nothing to it. There is no issue here.
In the world I live in, communication is not all verbal, nor are the messages recieved exactly and wholly the same as those which were transmitted. IOW, people misunderstand each other all the time. People are particularly prone to misunderstanding others when they are denied something they want.
Further, and this is again only my experience with living among civilized people, most suits for sexual favours are pressed, not through bald, simple 'how about it?' requests (which can be accepted or rejected in equally simple language), but through innuendo, in which setting and body language are at least as important as what's actually spoken.
In western civilization, any private social event in which the participants include one woman and more than three men not related by blood, the assumption that the woman, if she is not the hostess, is there as part of the entertainment rises depending on relative age differences, time of day, the intimacy of the venue, the dress or undress of all participants, the presence and quantity of alcohol or other social disinhibitors, and how well the stated purpose of the gathering meshes with all the reasons, public and private, each participant has for attending. A woman who ignores these factors is likely to find herself in a situation for which she is ill-prepared, whereas one who does is better able to make an informed decision as to attend or not, and if to attend, to ensure that she has a good time.
Posted by: pericat at Nov 6, 2003 12:39:28 PM
Using lots of big words and saying a simple thing in lots of paragraphs doesn't make your stereotypes any LESS hurtful -- and doesn't make you any LESS bigoted.
If you discriminate against men in this manner, why shouldn't they discriminate against you -- against all women -- in any manner that they choose?
Posted by: Julie at Nov 6, 2003 2:30:16 PM
Further, and this is again only my experience with living among civilized people, most suits for sexual favours are pressed, not through bald, simple 'how about it?' requests (which can be accepted or rejected in equally simple language), but through innuendo, in which setting and body language are at least as important as what's actually spoken.
"I perceive your behavior as sexually suggestive. I am not interested in associating with you sexually. Your behavior makes me uncomfortable. Please refrain from theresuch. Thank you."
There. How simple can it possibly get?
You can't expect to be understood unless you communicate.
Posted by: Julie at Nov 6, 2003 2:36:01 PM
In western civilization, any private social event in which the participants include one woman and more than three men not related by blood, the assumption that the woman, if she is not the hostess, is there as part of the entertainment rises depending on relative age differences, time of day, blah blah blah
I really want to see the rulebook for this game. It's not from the D&D universe, is it?
Posted by: Julie at Nov 6, 2003 2:37:47 PM
Chances that news of this will never make it back to the group: pretty much nil. So any of the men attending will know that some of the invitees have proffered unwanted invitations. How many of them know that already?
That question starts with the profferers; I have been assuming that you made it clear and they've reacted in a way that doesn't inspire trust; sulky, or unconvinced, or hurt, or something. Possibly Julie-the-contrarian is assuming that you either didn't make your refusal as explicit as the offer was, or that the refusal was properly accepted and you're the sulky one. Many permutations happen.
Actually, I think the decisive question is partly whether anyone has kept being sexual at you when you didn't want it. I think it's fair if everyone gets to ask, as long as they can handle any answer. And you haven't made that clear to my reading.
Going for the soft underbelly - and I'm trying to be delicate, because I've personally worried about the question in the last week - but what message do you think these peers are likely to receive from your dressing in an increasingly 'girly' fashion? Because, of course, clothes like language don't get to mean only what we say they mean, and while you have a right to walk around quoting Nietzsche and the Cathars, you can't expect a convocation of bishops to not react at all.
Drunk bishops in a hot tub: there's a visual to close on.
Posted by: clew at Nov 6, 2003 2:46:07 PM
Julie-the-contrarian, I've known plenty of people who get all huffy and insulted when you make their unstated expectations clear. It's even worse when you refuse them, or if you guessed wrong.
Doesn't have to be sex; I caused a Dire Feud once by agreeing to cover someone at work for an afternoon when I was 'supposed' to 'spontaneously mention' that there was hardly any work and it certainly was my responsibility anyway.
There's the problem in your argument: I at least would like the world to be as simple and rational as you present it, but I have not found it so. If none of us depended on social agreement to get along, the irrationality still wouldn't matter, but many people do so depend.
Posted by: clew at Nov 6, 2003 2:52:55 PM
This is OT, but I'm wondering what the group at misbehaving.net sees as its editorial policy. Is misbehaving.net going to be exclusively about "womens' issues"? Is that kind of confining? Group blogs that have members that are all or mostly male generally don't focus on "mens' issues." (You could always retort, "Why would they, they don't have any issues," but that would avoid the point I'm raising in addition to being untrue). Maybe one way to misbehave is to boldly go Beyond The Girl Stuff and add to this important commentary on the intersection of feminism and tech a place comment on things whose current pool of commentary is almost exclusively male. Electoral politics? RSS readers? Could be anything.
Posted by: Lisa Williams at Nov 6, 2003 2:55:09 PM
First off, Danah, I agree with many other posters who have encouraged you to listen to your intuition and/or get more info.
Secondly, Julie-the-contrarian, I disagree with both your opinion and your method. You have accused Danah, point-blank, of gross generalization and of being a bigot. If that is based solely on Danah's expressed concerns about this one particular situation, then you are yourself making a gross generalization. Bigotry is based on a pattern of behavior. If Danah told us she repeatedly shunned the company of men or something like that, *maybe* you'd have a basis for comment. But I'm sorry to point out that you don't.
Generalizations about men are wrong, but generalizations about Danah are also wrong.
Posted by: Anne C. at Nov 6, 2003 3:24:47 PM
According to your logic, if I kill a black man only once in my life, it's not a hate crime, because it can't be shown that it was motivated by racism, because there has not been a pattern of racist behavior in my life.
Noble try, Anne. Pathetic, but noble.
Posted by: Julie at Nov 6, 2003 5:45:34 PM
Since this has sadly degraded to a discussion about the specific incident, i feel the need to qualify my actions and provide a bit more context.
1) I have informed two of the people who have explicitly asked me for sex that i was not interested. One i told once and since then, i have simply ignored his repeated requests. One i had to slam the door on because he walked me home after a business meeting under very inaccurate understandings. I said no and he grabbed me, kissed me and begged to come inside; i rushed inside and slammed the door in his face. We haven't spoken since.
I'm sorry that vague explanations of inappropriateness are not enough, but perhaps this level of detail will provide a more grounded example to express why i'm not interested in attending a borderline social event. I refuse to go into more detail because i have no desire to identify either man. A handful of the men (and women) in my field know about one of these incidents.
2) I have had many fantastic interactions with the men in my field and have no problem having individual interactions with them, group interactions with them, drinks with them, etc. Most of the men in my world treat women with respect, read body language and do their darndest to respect people's boundaries.
3) Since many of you don't know me, i should qualify what my switch to girly-clothes looks like. Earlier in my career, i wore nothing but baggy boys clothes (bought from the men's section of the store or acquired at tech conferences). I now wear clothes that fit and my most common combination is a mid-length skirt over a pair of yoga pants with a properly sized T-shirt. And my hair is no longer buzzed. Also, girly means that i now wear pink. A lot of it. Pink cowboy boots and my big pink fur coat are common attire. Basically, i've stopped trying to look like the tech boys, but i haven't moved to Christina Aguilera (well, except when i'm in costume out dancing without any colleagues).
4) I wrote the inviter with a note of decline and deep gratitude (no details). He promised to invite me to the next event that he hosts that is not "all-male." I do not believe that he has read this post. I wrote back to say that it was not because the event was all-male, but an aggregate of factors (limited clothing, alcohol + all-male) and that i was a bit worried that it was just not appropriate for me. I re-emphasized that i was honored to be invited.
His response was kind, noting that he wouldn't want to be an in uncomfortable situation either and suggested that he might put together an additional event without the hot tubs. I have nothing but respect for his honorable response to my concern.
The event has happened; i chose not to attend and i do not regret my decision.
I will say that i'm a bit horrified by this thread though. My post was not written to get sympathy or to get attacked, but to offer my own experiences as an example of when i feel like a woman in technology. I'm sorry that it emerged as a way to attack me, my beliefs and my experience.
And i'm even sorrier to the people who have written me offline about this noting that misbehaving seems like a target for attack far more than a safe space to work through different ideas, concerns and approaches to being women in tech.
Posted by: danah boyd at Nov 6, 2003 6:09:19 PM
Your stated dilemma was not your dilemma at all. You were asking should you go to a hot tub business party as the only woman in a group of men some of whom were known to be pushy pests. Now you've said you've basically been sexually harassed--nearly cornered/attacked--by two guys who will be at the party. So no. Don't go. Why would anyone go if this were the case? Why would you consider going? If they haven't listened to your requests to get lost so far, why would that change?
Take the good guys out to lunch on your own. Make your own party excluding the two men who are NOT your friends, nor are they men you'd probably want to be in a business relationship with, because they value power and control over communication and cooperation.
From the male point of view, which I can only take a estimation at, I have seen many women continue to tease and appease InternetPowerGuys at the cost of their self-and-other-respect. It It's not fair for the men to get mixed messages from some InternetPowerGirls who don't want them to go away, not too far away, but don't intend to get involved with them either. The result is ambiguous communication and hurt feelings on both sides. Which leads to further power gaames. Again, this is probably not your case, but I've seen women playing these same hurtful games on men.
Anyway, assuming what you say is accurate, i wouldn't go to a party where a man who almost broke through my door to get at me was going to be. I'd have my own party. I also may have kicked him in the nuts. Or asked another guy to do the job for me. But that's just me.
Posted by: jeneane at Nov 6, 2003 7:10:31 PM
Lisa, all of the women writing on this site have weblogs of their own where they write about a variety of topics. This site was started specifically to discuss issues related to women and technology. So if it seems like it's a one-trick pony...well, that's intentional.
Posted by: Liz at Nov 6, 2003 7:16:54 PM
