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April 17, 2004
girls and LAN computer parties
Katla, one of the few girls at the huge (5000+ participants) LAN computer (thanks for the correction, Liz D.) party The Gathering (TG) in Norway last week furiously typed this post about the movie the lads made featuring closeups of the few participating girls' breasts. She vows never to return. Another girl lost.
It seems that The Gathering used to charge women a lower entrance fee than men, to encourage a better gender balance. Equal rights legislation put a stop to that, it's discrimination. And Katla writes that the money's not why the girls dodn't come, anyway, it's things like newspaper articles throwing around phrases about how The Gathering is for boys who are good at programming. That didn't keep Katla away, though it frightens the more timid. Boys invading the girls' showers and movies of tits did. No wonder.
It's kind of funny, against this, reading about NTNU's well-meant attempt to get more girls to come study computer science with them.
Posted by Jill Walker at 04:55 PM in General | Permalink
Comments
What makes me angriest about this kind of thing is the ongoing pretence by almost everyone involved in this kind of stupidity that all the men want women there: some of them just have awkward ways of showing it. So we get the "we were trying to compliment you" defense, and the "they're just kids who don't really know how to interact with women" defense.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. People who do this kind of thing know that it makes women feel angry, uncomfortable and shamed. They know it and they use it. They set out to hurt women, presumably to make them go away. I'm sick of letting people get away with the lame defenses.
Posted by: Mary at Apr 17, 2004 7:46:42 PM
Just because I defence is true does not make it lame. You may have heard it before, but that's because it is true. The answer "I forgot it" sounds lame, but it is also frequently true and the fact that it is often made up does not make it false. You clearly have difficulty in thinking in a logical and reasoned manner. To this end I would recommend you read Anthony Flew's "Thinking About Thinking". It takes you through the basic steps of logical thinking so that you can avoid making statements like the one above which are entirely unsupportable and most importantly, leave you open to the accusation that you do not care about being truhful.
Posted by: Bebop at Apr 17, 2004 8:02:42 PM
What a load of crap! How can you say that Bebop? Are you telling me you're so ignorant of the ways of people that you don't know when you're hurting them? "Gee, it'd be a good idea to run in to the girls showers with a video camera - I'd love it if someone did that to me!" .. rubbish. There is no defence for being an asshole, male or female. Get a life bebop, wake up to yourself - the women are trying to tell you something about yourself - listening instead of dictating.
Posted by: Michael at Apr 17, 2004 8:58:35 PM
Behop: making false assertions about other people's arguments is a particularly lame thing to do.
I did not assert that "I [your/my?] defence is true", and I wouldn't assert that, because I think it is false. It's not a compliment. It's not something that's done by men who like women and want to welcome them and want them to come back. I assert that the complete opposite is true: it's done by people who want to hurt and humiliate women, and who want them to go away. The claim that it is done to welcome women is therefore lame in the sense of disingenuous.
I'm prepared to discuss the truthfulness of this (to some extent anyway: I'll follow Charles's Rules of Argument and clear up misunderstandings) but I'm not interested in defending myself any further attacks based on the assumption that the defenses are truthful because we'd be arguing from different premises when we should be discussing them.
Posted by: Mary at Apr 17, 2004 10:15:52 PM
Bebop, are you the same bebop who posted this to Katla's site?
most girls I know love being hit on or wolf whistled at by guys - it just lets them know they're looking good. For these "geek girls" it's a rare opportunity, they're not going to get appreciated that often!
Interesting that you didn't post that here.
Posted by: spygeek at Apr 17, 2004 11:55:54 PM
It's a rude insination that geek girls is ugly girls, or "less pretty". And with a communety with such a high presidence of male geeks, geek-girls get hit by alot. I don't know many single geek girls, becouse they do have a wide variety of menn to choose from, and menn making an effort to show off their best sides.
Anyway thanks. My complaint is on its way to TG now. And i don't feel like giving up my hobby anymore, just like changing partyes to go to.
Posted by: Katla at Apr 18, 2004 9:05:40 AM
Behop's response looks like it's auto generated, based on certain keywords appearing in this post, so would not recommend putting any more energy into it.
Katla, I hope you do more than complain to the committee; I also hope you file a complaint with the local police. By most country's standards, what these kids did was illegal.
Jill, per your reference on women being too timid to go to this conference with the obvious labeling -- time to stop being timid. Time to stop being polite, fragile, and even feminine, if by these we fall back on gender roles in order not to confront inequality.
Timid women don't make history...and neither do polite, womanly ones, either.
Katla, if you don't go next year, they will have won and you will have lost an opportunity to make a difference. Go next year, take 20 lady geeks, but insist that the conference provide female security for the restrooms.
Posted by: Shelley at Apr 18, 2004 10:24:07 AM
Ugh, stuff like this really pisses me off, and the worst part is that it's not uncommon with computing groups involving teen/20-something guys. And then they wonder why women don't want to come to events like this?!
It reminds me of when I ran a special interest group (SIG) as part of a student computing group at my alma mater. We had regular meetings for all the heads of the SIGs, but I could never get a word in edgewise, and my suggestions and concerns were usually ignored. I brought it up to the leader of the whole thing, and he just shrugged it off as no big deal. And yet he wondered why there were so few girls involved with the group! I ended up quitting the whole thing not long after, and started my own group elsewhere.
Katla, I hope you'll complain to the organizers of this event, and let them know about this whole thing. Hopefully they'll have a better response than the guys I dealt with in college, and will illicit some sort of change.
Posted by: Valerie at Apr 18, 2004 3:12:33 PM
I know it's a suicide mission to defend this kind of thing, and there's no question that the behaviour was insensitive, but I have to say it doesn't really sound all that bad -- pretty harmless, in fact. Just my two cents.
Posted by: Mathew at Apr 18, 2004 3:16:05 PM
Just wanted to make a correction: At this years The Gathering approximatly 20% were girls (out of 5000 that = 1000), and that's higher than most other (LAN/computer) parties...
Posted by: Xjill at Apr 18, 2004 4:39:19 PM
Were there really 20% girls there? I know the website says there were 20% girls in 1999, but this report (PDF) says that the numbers have been much lower since. I don't know where to find accurate information on the latest The Gatherings.
Posted by: Jill at Apr 18, 2004 6:11:58 PM
As far as responding to this kind of thing goes, how about trying to get on the organising committee in the following year?
Posted by: Mary at Apr 18, 2004 6:28:58 PM
Yea. Organize a committee. And maybe have a lunch meeting. Then organize a slumber party, hold a goddamned bake sale while you're at it - because it'll do just about as much good as telling them "Your feelings"
You want to deal with this, then do the same. Chat up the little poindexters and get 'em with their britches around their ankles and salivating like dogs, then take some choice pictures. And laugh. Loud. Make wolf whistles. Make references to the Pillsbury Doughboy and Grade School paste. Get in a group and make dick jokes.
I'll tell you this right now - not one of the guys will organize a protest, or a sit in, or a committee, or call the local authorities. They'll be the quietest sunuvabitches you've ever seen and anyone else who gets the same idea will think twice if they even consider the thought for a moment.
Then, after perhaps a minor escalation, they'll begin to treat you like equals. You're dealing with about half a million years of hormones and a good six thousand years of male-dominated culture. Committees take forever in everything - humiliation and the threat of looking like a horses ass takes seconds.
Think revenge of the nerds - then add breasts..well, scratch that - most of the attendees probably have bigger ones than the women attending. You get the idea though.
-Me
Posted by: Pompeo_Posar at Apr 18, 2004 10:07:29 PM
Well, I suppose you could *organise* a committee, although I'm not really sure what it would do. Possibly get a bake sale off the ground. Mmm, cake.
On the other hand you could get on the party's *organising* committee, like I originally suggested, which is quite a different thing and would involve being *on* a committee and organising a better party next year, but wouldn't involve organising a committee at all. Despite the salient points made above vis a vi the impotence of committees, I suspect a committee does exist to organise this 5000 person party, but it does sound like they could use some help with some of the details next year.
Posted by: Mary at Apr 19, 2004 1:13:13 AM
I don't discount the effort - organizing or joining the committee will definately bring the issue to light, make those who plan the event more aware, etc. I simply don't think it will do a whole lot of good.
My knowledge of this conference is limited to what I've read tonight (from a link at BoingBoing) - the messages promoting it, the attendees weblogs, and of course, Katlas description of what went on. However, from all appearances, it has about as much structure, professionalism and general feeling of "whatever comes along"ish-ness that another conference that I am familiar with has - in this case, Defcon, held in Las Vegas, NV.
They've had issues with security in the past, although not too many similar to this. However, every year, they go over the ground rules - no hacking - no playing with the phones to do something they weren't intended to do, stop reprogramming the elevators, and so on. And as tradition isn't something they care to break with, each year, they're completely ignored by a large population of the attendees.
Keep in mind this conference is hosted, funded, and attended by not only hackers, but local and federal law enforcement officials, former/current intelligence/government officials, security professionals (data and physical), software/internet companies and other sorts of miscreants and undesirables of that sort. The rules, despite such a heavy presence, continue to get broken in a fairly open fashion, even after nearly nine years of operation.
With that in mind, I would imagine the "warnings" at the next meeting would have very little impact. Increased security will simply add to an air of unpleasantness (although - with a crowd of over 500, not to mention 5000, warrants a professional security detail with a strong enforcement capability - at the very least.)
My suggestion isn't a end-all-arguments solution, but I believe that if this sort of thing is going to die out eventually, pride may have to be swallowed by the gender-general and eventually someones gonna have to get down in the mud with the pigs. It's happened at a couple conventions of a similar type, and people generally have settled down.
But then, I'm a Nihilist. From the way I see it, nothing done in the standard "official capacity" ever works well. Besides, committe-joining isn't really Misbehaving, but I may be taking the sites name too literally.
Posted by: Pompeo_Posar at Apr 19, 2004 2:11:52 AM
Pompeo_Posar: Looks like we're on the same page now at least.
However, the idea of joining the committee isn't so much that you get to give a big "naughty naughty" lecture at the beginning of the party, but that you could put some practical measures in place to increase the basic safety of the event. Shelley suggested women security guards for the bathrooms above as an example. You seem really convinced of the impotence of committees: I presume they don't just nanny the attendees, they do things like choose the venue, arrange social events, choose the games or the war games rules or whatever. It's probably done in an "official capacity", even.
I completely agree that the "naughty naughty" lectures are probably a waste of time, but there's some basic on-the-ground stuff that you do to increase the levels of sanity at large events. (I don't know how much of it was done, but Katla might.)
As far as misbehaviour goes, jamming of the type you suggested is fun and works well sometimes, but it's a good idea to stack the deck against your targets first (make damn sure you've got some sympathetic onlookers laughing really loudly). Otherwise the escalation can move beyond minor and into (for example) physical violence.
Posted by: Mary at Apr 19, 2004 2:36:24 AM
The female security guards - or at least some sort of designated group of people keeping an eye out for trespassers would be a good idea - additionally, in off hours, a lock or (if available, depending on venue) security card. If stricter measures are in place, the frat boy brigade is simply going to try to discover ways to circumvent it.
The "naughty naughty" routine may help awareness, but keep in mind that this sort of information is generally common sense - and chances are they'll ignore it either way.
You definately want *something* organized, at least in doing something retalitory But, it sounds from all reports that this is an ongoing issue, and that the people who are doing it are organizing it as well.
I dunno, it could be that official action may work. Flyers with pictures of offenders, having a couple of them hauled off to the clink very publicly..it could do some good. But I wouldn't discount physical violence straight off. It may be brutish, uncouth and generally frowned upon, but beating these halfwits like baby harbor seals does have a certain merit to it...
I just hope the solution isn't that women decide to not attend. It would just set a bad precident, and it's something nobody needs these days. Katla has the right attitude for whats going on - a desire for just doing geekstuff(tm) in a fun environment - enthusiasm not seen much these days in males or females. Unfortunately, age and/or exposure to shell necklaces, baseball hats and Girls Gone Wild commercials tend to warp the male perspective of what is "appropriate".
I think I'll stop now - I'll begin repeating myself if I keep going.
Regards,
-Me
Posted by: Pompeo Posar at Apr 19, 2004 3:07:35 AM
I've always found a woman only dinner or lunch event to really help out at conferences. It helps you get to know all the other females and then all of a sudden you've got all these allies everywhere you turn... Perhaps something like this might make a difference here.
Posted by: trish at Apr 21, 2004 6:59:50 PM
