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April 12, 2004
internet porn kills lust?
In a recent article, Naomi Wolf inverts the old chants of "porn is theory, rape is practice" that I for one innocently accepted as gospel fifteen years ago. Instead she argues that the ubiquity of pornography we now have on the internet turns men off real women. A monotonous diet of internet pornography, she proposes, conditions men to come only at the sight of computer-generated impossibilities with Brazilian waxes and a real, naked woman just doesn't appeal to them. My personal experience doesn't support this argument at all, I have to admit, but perhaps if I were twenty and my boyfriends had all grown up on internet pornography I'd be agreeing with the young men and women Wolf quotes. And the orthodox bedroom does sound pretty hot.
Posted by Jill Walker at 05:11 PM in General | Permalink
Comments
pornography isn't women-friendly by any stretch, but, like you, jill, i don't completely buy the arguments against it made by some feminists.
these assertions by wolf sound like she's trying to bolster her own views on porn (and she's entitled to do so). but to me, those quotes sound like college-age people who are still figuring things out -- both sexually, and with their own identities.
that's something we all went through (and some of us still are going through). if it wasn't internet porn, it'd be something else causing our collective sexual agnst. i don't buy wolf's statement: "Well, I am 40, and mine is the last female generation to experience that sense of sexual confidence and security in what we had to offer." i doubt she felt that way at 19 or 20. who really does?
i think it's too easy to blame internet porn in this case. cultural critics often like to point the finger of blame at whatever is newest. i think that's what wolf is doing here.
Posted by: tiffany at Apr 12, 2004 7:09:48 PM
so if i read this right it seems to say that men are going to need something more- like an emotionally intimate relationship- if they are going to feel satified with their partner, and are likely to turn down sex until they have that. that women will have to put forth their personalities and intellect as sexy, since they don't have porn star bodies and appetites, and seek companionship rather than simply present themselves (like objects) for sex. as much as i'd like to believe that, my gut says it's not true.
Posted by: quinn at Apr 12, 2004 8:31:33 PM
So in my net wanderings I stumbled upon this site, mostly at the promptings of my boyfriend. Despite being raised in the airbrushed porn era, he thinks it's sexy when I get all worked up about anything remotely intellectual. Be it politics, femimism or merely explaining my own studies to him, he seems to find it both endearing and arousing. Granted, it's been my experience that men like him are few and far between at my age (23) but as stated above, that is most likely confounded by immaturity, not porn. I, myself, am not classically "porn-worthy" - but I am trim, healthy and not without my own little bit of arrognace when it comes to my own offerings sexually. Who knows where I got it from, but it is this last quality that attracts men, not my breasts or my ass or my legs or anything else, even if they won't admit it. My generation doesn't need to be shielded from the evils (and believe me porn is the least of my worries), they need to be exposed to them and given a base that if they want to they can change those evils for the better. Besides, rape is about the rapist and his issues with power, not his issues with sex. I, for one, am not about to give up either.
Posted by: Steph at Apr 13, 2004 12:54:23 AM
Too much pornography can indeed act like Prozac for the libido. Not all men end up objectifying women, however. Some who maintain a healthy respect for women start consuming pornography as a vice to deal with reality of not having one around. But after a while the vice can become a habit.
Posted by: Mike at Apr 13, 2004 11:02:28 PM
I think that there's a place for erotic materials - porn - as long as there isn't a dependence on it. After all, healthy people are sexual beings, and it's unrealistic to depend on your partner to satisfy every urge, as long as your partner is comfortable with your choice of materials. The trends are towards more couple- and woman-friendly porn, especially in videos intended for couples to view together. There's a sizeable body of porn that I, at least, don't find degrading or particularly objectifying, and that I rather enjoy viewing. Britney Spears videos are more objectifying and degrading than my and my husband's porn collection!
Posted by: Kara at Apr 15, 2004 3:25:36 PM
It doesn't sound too likely as of now. But what about the day in the (albeit not too close) future when augmented reality/VR technologies become sophisticated enough to let you handle downloaded "fully functional" 3D-models of the Britneys or Enriques?
Posted by: i1277 at Apr 15, 2004 10:31:43 PM
I wrote a paper about that, i1277, and from what I found, the porn doesn't have to be particularly realistic to be effective or widely sought. In fact, the "unreality" of the porn was a major turn-on for some; you could create and interact with someone you couldn't have (or doesn't exist) in real life. There's a lot of disturbing CG porn right now catering to voilence fetishes ("f*** her then rip her arms off") and the like, which capitalize on this un-reality. I don't know how mainstream tentacle/alien/violent porn will become as CG gets more sophisticated, but the general idea behind it just blurs the line between "fantasy" and "reality" even more. If we can customize our own virtual partners, will we start wishing we could tweak our physical ones too?
Posted by: ghani at Apr 16, 2004 6:04:52 AM
As someone who was introduced to the internet around the same time as I hit puberty, the best thing the internet has brought to the pornographic table is that I can find real people being sexual and having sex and enjoying it.
There's a long history of cultural sexual signals evolving based on attributes that are difficult to obtain; from being overweight and pale as a demonstration of your independent wealth to being tanned and fit showing you weren't stuck in the office.
Since cultural standard of beauty tends towards things that are, at least natively, hard to fake, it seems likely that the calvalcade of surgically enhanced artificially tanned sex-objects going at it with all the enthusiasm of actuaries will eventually lead to an elevation of the imperfect, the spontaneous, and the authentic expression of sexual enjoyment.
Posted by: Ethan Fremen at Apr 17, 2004 7:11:32 PM
A monotonous diet of internet pornography, she proposes, conditions men to come only at the sight of computer-generated impossibilities with Brazilian waxes and a real, naked woman just doesn't appeal to them
Maybe it's me being a typical male pig but I swear for 'real, naked woman' I read 'neurotic overweight american middle-aged woman'.
You can start stoning me now.
Posted by: Acid Zebra at Apr 18, 2004 11:08:46 AM
it seems likely that the calvalcade of surgically enhanced artificially tanned sex-objects going at it with all the enthusiasm of actuaries will eventually lead to an elevation of the imperfect, the spontaneous, and the authentic expression of sexual enjoyment.
I agree, Ethan. Witness the growing popularity of (genuine) amateur porn sites, as well as punk, goth and other grrl porn.
Posted by: Robert at Apr 19, 2004 6:35:36 AM
If children of 7 years old can distinguish between fact and fiction,
a 30 year old male should be able to do the same.
Seriously: People have been growing up with rolemodels for their
entire life. Be it pin-up's, moviestar's, hero's, etc. For some strange
reason people have always accepted that the person they ended up
with isn't a movie star. A possible conclusion could be that people
really are capable of separating fact of fiction! Hint, hint!
Except Naomi Wolf off course.
Posted by: paul at Apr 19, 2004 7:46:28 AM
I think that Acid Zebra has demonstrated to us that the premise of the article is true -- he prefers the fake over the actual, and that relating sexually a real woman with an imperfect body, a personality, and who is older than 25 is no longer within his powers.
In a world where women have to "package" themselves sexually as tasty and appealing "products" in a wholly consumer society, and men are given total availability of such products 24/7, I think that internet porn, Britney Spears and the whole pornographic world is responsible for people such as Acid Zebra who don't want a real woman.
Posted by: jennifer at Apr 21, 2004 3:51:14 PM
dear Jill,
My opinion in a nutshell: I think this whole debate depends on the kind of sexual life a couple has (by that i mean a grown-up couple, living together for a long period). If it is fulfilling for both partners and assuming they have compatible libidos, then there is no problem as they both will have no time to surf for porn... the desire and the curiosity to look for porn on the net (or elsewhere for that matter) is a sign of an unfulfilled sexual life and should be openly discussed urgently and seriously.
Posted by: dodi at Apr 22, 2004 2:53:19 PM
ok, jen, let me rephrase acid zebra's snarky, and insultingly- worded (though valid, IMO) critique into something more intelligent:
- should we give men more credit than wolf is giving them?
- is wolf projecting her own insecurities about how her body is changing with age?
- is there another way to interpret the anecdotes she presents as evidence? (like is it *really* internet porn? or are there larger cultural shifts at work?)
*reading the past the "how" to get to the "what"*
Posted by: tiffany at Apr 22, 2004 5:49:40 PM
i1227, you watch too much futurama. but seriously i can see that happening too. also, there's an anime/manga called Chobits which explores the concept of computers taking the place as one's "significant other" or maybe i'm just over analyzing it
i can totally relate to the idea that porn desensitizes a guy to real women. i can see that it's happened to me to an extent. i use porn because women have become imposible to deal with and you can get pretty much what your after anyway without jumping through all the rediculous hoops you have to in real life. Yes, ultimately men really are just after sex. Humanity has developed all these rediculous social formalities around the quest to make it "interesting" (i guess) and we call it a relationship. evolution indeed. i've met an incredibly low number of women who have anything to say that i really feel like sitting down and listening to. i'd just as soon jerk off than sit through boring movies and rediculous empty conversation over dinner. calm down, i'm not trying to say i'm better than women, i'm sure there's countless women out there who could walk intelectual circles around me. i'm just trying to say that i don't give a damn.
of course i could just be bitter. what with being a 26 year old virgin and all. blame the porn, blame society as it is today, blame the war in iraq, blame the christian god, blame my terrible grammar and spelling, whatever. I personally blame the worldwide conspiracy. you know who you are.
Posted by: superhaterman at Aug 13, 2004 2:59:47 AM
I recently discovered that my boyfriend is very much into internet porn. He doesnt know of my discovery. At first I was hurt. It felt like a big fat rejection to me. I felt confused, I am beutiful, smart, creative, physically fit, and adventurous in bed and in life. So to me it was like a big slap in the face saying that despite all of my good qualities, and the amazing friendship I and my partner share, that I still was not enough for him, and that he needed to seek out other women that turn him on because I simply wasnt doing it for him. It made me feel like the only thing he got off on about me was simply the availability of physical touch. He once told me that he'd checked out some internet porn and decided it wasnt for him. Right now he is actually on a surf trip and we are meeting up in a couple weeks. I feel like I need to confront him, but I dont know what to think. Is this rejection? Is this his way of being able to cheat on me and not get caught? Does this mean that I do not satisify him physically or sexually? Or is this not really as big of a deal as I'm making it out to be? I am such an open person sexually, and can be very erotic and kinky, and him still having to have his extra & secrete sexual experiences(on the net) while EXCLUDING me make it seem like i just dont measure up. Am I wrong to think this?
Posted by: frustrated & confused at Sep 1, 2004 1:58:48 PM
Perhaps what men like Acid Zebra don't understand is that the difficulty posed by porn - and more generally - the constant barrage of 'perfect' women is not only or necessarily lowered self-esteem but a sense of isolation and sadness that a woman feels. When I studied pornography academically, I thought the whole Andrea Dworkin line of thought was ludricous (excepting in cases of hard-core or violent porn). I would be the first to defend it on grounds of freedom of expression, sexual liberation, etc. For years, I've thought of myself as a "feminist that accepts porn". That viewpoint was brought sharply into question very recently when I discovered that my boyfriend - who is a dear kind man who says he loves me - both looks at and masturbates to (soft-core) porn. I really don't know how much of it is linked to self-esteem: I do not have the features of the classic porn star but I am petite and fit and, as far as I understand, physically attractive to a lot of men including my boyfriend. I don't feel less attractive as a result of my discovery but I do feel diminished in a way that I can barely articulate to myself. I guess the closest I can come to describing how I feel is that the act of sex between him and I has now changed from something only he and I do to something that - psychologically - he does with other women. And of course, there is also the sense that these other women have qualities I don't have and never will (without surgery I suppose) - though I don't think it's a lowered self-esteem thing but more a practical observation - ie. "I will never look like that, so my boyfriend will always look at that because he won't get it with me.". Because of this I feel like our monogamous relationship is no longer monogamous in spirit though it is in letter. I guess my question to men (and women) who feel as Acid Zebra does is: is it too much to ask to be the only one your partner fantasizes about, at least in the first few years of a relationship? Maybe it is, I don't know. Of course I know there are other beautiful women out there and of course my boyfriend will notice them, but it just seems like masturbation or actively pursuing pictures of these women is so much more than just noticing. The other thing is - I notice attractive men but I don't masturbate to the thought of them nor fantasize about them because I love (loved?) my boyfriend. It's not that I stop myself from thinking these things because it's morally wrong but just because - being in love with him - it hadn't even occurred to me to look at other men in that way. I feel so hurt and I don't even really fully know why - the consequence of which is I feel so distant from him and I find it difficult to love him. So - to sum up - I would ask that rather than placing blame or criticizing one sex for having the wrong standards, etc, that maybe we would think about how this really affects human relationships and the love that we let ourselves feel - despite the fear of being vulnerable to another that we all have. If there is something out there that reduces the sum quotient of love and caring in the world, why do we want it?
Posted by: blisstothis at Oct 4, 2004 4:22:48 PM
Because of this I feel like our monogamous relationship is no longer monogamous in spirit though it is in letter. I guess my question to men (and women) who feel as Acid Zebra does is: is it too much to ask to be the only one your partner fantasizes about, at least in the first few years of a relationship? Maybe it is, I don't know. Honestly, yes. For many men, from puberty onwards they grow up idly fantasising about random women whenever they have a spare moment. To ask them (us) to stop this is to ask them to change something that's a significant part of their personality, by sheer force of will--but the fantasising becomes even more fun when there's an aspect of the illicit to it, and there's never going to be immediate negative feedback from this fantasising. Cf--when you were single, how often did you fantasise about, say, some stranger when using public transport? Relatively rarely, I'm guessing, from what exchanges on the subject I've had with women. I do it most days, and would be hard-pressed to stop. Though, for what it's worth, were I in a relationship with regular sex, I wouldn't indulge those fantasies if given the chance to. Masturbation and fantasising aren't infidelity, if the latter word isn't to be a tautology when used about my sex. Actual
feelings, love and sex are a thousand times more important and real.
Posted by: Aidan Kehoe at Oct 11, 2004 9:05:40 AM
Masturbation and fantasies aren't necessary infidelity. But when it's a continued pattern it might as well be.
Some of the posts here are devoid of useful information. My personal experience has been that masturbation and fantasies hints at an unfulfilled need. There's a woman I'm involved with, and we spend almost every waking moment having sex. She's not model perfect; in fact she's a few pounds overweight. What I'm saying is that she's not the idealized woman media would portray but she's not horrible. Without a doubt she's above average. But we have a healthy sexual relationship and despite my access to gargantuan amounts of porn (I work in adult entertainment), that's never useful when she's around. Now when she's away ... well that's another story.
Maybe I'm just extremely horny.
Posted by: Giao at Oct 12, 2004 11:16:21 AM
I could care less if a woman is prettier thinner or viewed sexier than me.
We are all different and more than half of the men viewing porn aren't GOD's themselves. I am sure in the light of day, their rears bear pimples, or their belly bulges, and for goodness sake women's breast are on their chest, a man's sac is in his pants, being less on display. I wish a man had to walk around with his sac on his chest, then others around him would get to judge if he's got big enough
blanks. (you know what I mean)Mabey it's time to step up in time. Mabey straight male porn should come more out into the open, just as much as female porn. Mabey my husband isn't compairing himself with other men because there just isn't enough access to straight male porn. Why when I am in a commited relationship, should I feel the need to compete with a plastic existence? Vows where taken, to honor, love, cherish. How does porn bring honor to the woman you married if you bring it in to a relationship and it causes her to question if she is what you as a man need? I thought this was decided before the vows. Internet Porn to me is just another way for men to window shop, to arouse their curiosities, something that seems harmful to a commitment. Why? Because WHY ARE THEY STILL WINDOW Shopping? The message sent to me as a woman is, my partner is unsure of what he wants. Then I have to ask myself, Why the heck did he marry me? Is my new car sent gone? Does he have to know what another woman under her clothes looks like, and why would he seek to know. I know if I wanted to know how well endowed a man is, it wouldn't be just to sneek a peek, I'd be looking for some form of arousal. How would my husband feel, if another man aroused my sexual interest and the mere veiwing of another man lead me to masturbate to the point of climax. Hmmm This shows me again Men don't think. Where the heck was I (in his mind & heart) when another woman was turning him on? How can anyone find pleasure from something that causes the person they "supposedly" love pain? For anyone to find joy at someone else's expense to me is not good. How if men keep turning to porn do they expect the women they are commited to, to be able to open up and unleash their sexual desires upon them? My husband viewing porn doesn't make me feel very sexy, it leaves me hurt and empty, like I am being forced to compete for his attention with a digital image. This brings me to the next question, If a digital image arouses him, then who is to say how he would react if a actual woman approched him. This whole issue brings distrust, where there once was trust. Without Trust a relationship is headed for disaster. Why should I feel the need to lower my standards by feeling the need to even the score, give him a taste of his own medicine? I am so not prude and don't let my personal view on the porn issue lead you to belive that. Don't leave your partner out, it makes them feel a sence of betrayal. Oh yeah but from a man's point of view they do this whole porn thing because they don't want to deal with all the strings of their current relationship. They just want to get off, doesn't matter who they affect while doing so. And another thing, Take a good look in the full lenghth mirror Mr. because your sac is uneven! So shall I seek out the perfectly endowed man, How sexy do you feel Sir, knowing that the images of males much larger and stronger possibly even better looking, are in my head when you are touching me? Eventually settleing for what you have instead of what you desire will get old it seems. So Again What is it that you want? I can not control my husbands actions, but I can refuse to accept them for myself. Mabey my ideals of love are too high, but if he won't settle why should I? I know who I am and I know what I have to offer no one forced you to claim me. And neither should I be forced to compete or choose if the constant bruises to my ego are worth this relationship. My joke to my husband, pay me and I'll be your whore too. A woman nurtures and longs to fulfill, and when her partner turns to someone else it leaves her feeling as if she is falling short of fulfilling her partner.
Posted by: FaceValue at Nov 8, 2004 3:35:34 PM
